Cha If    The Book
NAME Reading (pages)
AGENDA ITEM (questions, comments, ideas, screeds, manifestos, etc.)
R.B. Mitchell
Ch 2
How much agency can we give to machines? People would appear to always have the upper hand in what Pickering presents. Harry Collins, for instance, would say the experimenters regress means that human agency always wins out eventually. Further, it is true that machines "did things" on their own, however it is only because people noted and cared about those things that were done that they came to matter (i.e. gain agency). If a tree falls and no one hears it, does it make a sound?
R.B. Mitchell
Did anyone else feel that the book had a nice amount of linguistic dancing and metaphorical playtime...but did not really "do" all that much? I was left feeling a bit of "so what?"...a lot of the discussion just felt dated to me.
I feel so, haha. --Denver


Sonya
183-5


why pragmatic realism is agnostic about

 correspondence? one example maybe help

me to underestand that :) .

Sonya


part2

 

186-192

201-208


incommensurability of theories 

 in last and future 

with ones in the "present time" proves that science is made through a long periods of continious growth governed by revolutions. will it suspect the rightness of ontological discoveries of present time in the future or just devaluing old theories?

or that shows the relativity of new knowledge to the old one?

Denver

Is the metaphor of Mangle an improvement of Social study of Science or just a concession? The author's argument seems eclectic to me, and it seems he gives up (or closes) the debate with scientists.
Keith
General

I am not from the discipline so correct me if I am wrong, but if this book had been published 20-25 years ago it would have been somewhat 'provocative' in its approach?  Today not so much? 

 

I do not feel the 'mangle' metaphor contributed anything to the writing, and seeing that term so often made me think that Pickering actually thinks the mangle is a realistic depiction of science.  Need to be careful with metaphors and analogies. 

 

At least there were some images in this text.

Jon
Throughout the book but really bothering me by Chapter 6

Pickering's distinction between the temporal and emergent and the "substantive and enduring" seems to me to be without merit, if only because his examples of nonemergent characteristics such as interests, social constraints, rules, etc. are almost never enduring and almost always historically, temporally, and spatially situated, as well as in a certain sense contingent. I think what he really means to contrast is the agentic vs. the structural, which is a boring and familiar problem which is way overdone in the social sciences to begin with.   

Nicole
Response to Keith
I think you're about right -- though 20-25 years is a little long.  This book came out about 15 years ago, after a pretty long string of articles (as he mentions in the preface).  I don't think it would be seen as especially provocative if it came out now.  He draws on a lot of material that was really popular in the early 90s, maybe too popular for its own good.
Nicole
chapter 5

I'd like to talk a bit about Pickering's focus on posthumanism. Conceptually, I'm sympathetic to it.  But I'm not sure what it really adds to Noble's analysis. Forces of Production is a pretty straight up materialist history of industrial production. I don't think I'd disagree with Pickering in seeing that approach as obliterating certain interesting phenomena, but I'm not sure applying posthumanism brings up really important aspects.  Maybe it's partly a methodological problem -- he's re-reading Noble rather than adding any supplementary information, and even if Noble's deterministic, he's more interesting on this subject than Pickering.
Jessica
General
I find it difficult to accept the concept of the mangle because it really seems to rely on agency, specifically non-human/non-social agency. I am not sure if I understand how Pickering means to use agency, or what "machinic agency" is. It just seems that he removes most social/epistemic influence and that doesn't seam realistic.
Jessica
General
Is "The Mangle of Practice" a mangle in itself? Does Pickering actually do what he sets out to do? It seems like he does a better job of talking about how we try to explain scientific events than explaining science itself.
Jessica
General
I have heard of the mangle as being placed between SSK and Actor Network Theory, but I see it being heavily on the side of actor network theory (perhaps because his use of agency?)...I am not sure if I see how it really draws on SSK. This may be because I generally associate SSK with social consstructionism and I don't see Pickering being a social constructionist at all.
Logan
General
I am confused because I thought (after reading the introduction) that intentionality, which makes the human/non-human agency dialectic asymmetric, actually privileges human agency.  But now I think that Pickering intends that no particular actor is privileged -- but he mostly shows examples of material agency.  what does everyone else think?
Logan
@Jessica
  My understanding is that "machinic agency" or "disciplined agency" is just Pickering's idea of ways that we mindlessly self-regulate.

So a simple example would be the idea that "class starts at 10am".  The registrar tells us through SIS (which is an information technology) and the idea involves American cultural conceptualization of "class starting" which a lecturer in front of a room with students sitting (on chairs) and ready for note-taking (in books or computers).  But before we get to all of the material items, and their agency in constructing the class, there is a general human machinic agency of "start" with the intentionality that time brings only to humans....hmmm.  ok I don't know any more if that was a simple example.  And I don't know if I explained machinic agency either.  Doh.
Logan
@Jessica
I don't know SSK at all -- I missed Science Studies.  However, in the intro, Pickering claims that Collins and Yearley reduce/transform all material agency back to human agency because of Dilemma (1)if we analyze material agency, the 'we' must be machines.  Could someone explain what SSK is, so that I could understand this claim?
Logan
General

Is the posthumanist space that Pickering positions himself in similar to Fortun's discussion of the future anterior in Advocacy After Bhopal?

Ok, nevermind, this is about how he has positioned his text as post-modern and Fortun's idea I think Pickering would say is impossible.

Mark
General
Thank goodness... I was concerned that I would be the only one who felt "so what?" after reading this. What does the metaphor ultimately offer it terms of our understanding of science studies? I kept wanting to replace Pickering's terminology with words like glitch and fix instead of resistance and accommodation.
Kelly
Ch. 2 & 3
pgs. 43, 69

It seems that a great deal of emphasis is placed in the human agency of science due to its ability to direct science while it is essentially the material agent which ultimately determines scientific progress.  Although the fields of science may hold up specific theories for cultural or superficial reasons, ultimately it is the material agency which determines the direction of the sciences, and scientists must reinterpret, abandon, or falsify theories which do not hold up in the face of empirical or material evidence.  Over time only human and mechanical agents must do the accommodation since natural phenomena do not change, it either responds as predicted or not.  Only theories which cannot be observed or tested are entirely controlled by human agency.  It is interesting for example, in the search for subatomic particles; the nature of the phenomena under observation altered even the social makeup of the groups studying it in order to achieve significant progress.  I find it surprising that Pickering must come up with a crude metaphor like “the mangle” in order to acknowledge the material aspect of science and move the dialog away from the human aspect.


Kristin General

This is an ambitious book, in that it tries to propose a universal understanding of the critical elements of practice. Pickering's tone suggests that he's unearthing novel perceptions of scientific practice, but is the contention that people encounter resistances, and do something other than originally intended a surprise?

Kevin
General
Where is Pickering situated on the social construction scale put forth by Hacking?
Kevin
General
Where does the "mangle" theory fit into SSK and ANT?  Is it intended to extend or to compete with those theories?

Nicole
bush & bad science
http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2004/02/62339